Comments on: Cosmology and Cricket (Oh and Evolution Too) http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/ Spirituality and Theology Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:08:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: sportsmediaz http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/comment-page-1/#comment-16441 sportsmediaz Tue, 05 Aug 2008 20:56:22 +0000 http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/#comment-16441 Thanks to the article, Now there is more reason to comment than ever before! Thanks to the article, Now there is more reason to comment than ever before!

]]> By: Steve Bogner http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/comment-page-1/#comment-68 Steve Bogner Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:52:04 +0000 http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/#comment-68 To what extent is our perception of chaos simply a reflection of our lack of understanding? What appeared chaotic a hundred years ago may be fully understood today. In another hundred years... then what? So perhaps the in-betweenness you mention is not only a fact about the world but also a fact about our understanding of it? I'm not a theologian - I am a consultant. I get paid to solve problems for people. If I don't really understand a problem, then I'm not very well equipped to go solve it. For me, ID is a cop out from admitting that we don't yet fully understand some things about the world. Instead of admitting this lack of understanding and leaving it at that, we say that what we don't understand, God must have designed. That puts God in the margins though; as we understand more of creation - of the cosmos - and I'm sure our understanding will advance, then God's space in the margin shrinks. So that's where I was coming from - in the absence of certainty, I will take the optimistic, in-the-world approach. To what extent is our perception of chaos simply a reflection of our lack of understanding? What appeared chaotic a hundred years ago may be fully understood today. In another hundred years… then what?

So perhaps the in-betweenness you mention is not only a fact about the world but also a fact about our understanding of it?

I’m not a theologian – I am a consultant. I get paid to solve problems for people. If I don’t really understand a problem, then I’m not very well equipped to go solve it. For me, ID is a cop out from admitting that we don’t yet fully understand some things about the world. Instead of admitting this lack of understanding and leaving it at that, we say that what we don’t understand, God must have designed. That puts God in the margins though; as we understand more of creation – of the cosmos – and I’m sure our understanding will advance, then God’s space in the margin shrinks.

So that’s where I was coming from – in the absence of certainty, I will take the optimistic, in-the-world approach.

]]> By: Crystal http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/comment-page-1/#comment-67 Crystal Sun, 28 Aug 2005 06:35:56 +0000 http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/#comment-67 Fr. Marsh, can you expain more about theological cosmology. Is it different than the teleological argument? How does it realte to Ignatian discernment? Thanks. Fr. Marsh, can you expain more about theological cosmology. Is it different than the teleological argument? How does it realte to Ignatian discernment? Thanks.

]]> By: Rob http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/comment-page-1/#comment-66 Rob Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:41:54 +0000 http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/#comment-66 Steve, I don't think it's as straightforward as being either optimistic or pessimistic about 'the world'. I think both those stances are inadequate. One of the questions I'm interested in as a theologian is whether creation is a 'cosmos'--in the original sense of being an integral whole, marked by order and even beauty ('cosmos' shares the same root as 'cosmetic'). Those who use the problem of evil as an argument against theism clearly emphasise the world's lack of order, goodness and beauty. They see more chaos than cosmos. Those who espouse Intelligent Design as an argument for some kind of theism point to the 'design' of the cosmos. I don't think either argument holds because the world--in it's present state--is only a partial cosmos. It is both beautiful and ugly. But that <i>in-betweenness</i> is what grounds our capacity to 'discern spirits' and so discover how God is at work in the world so that we might align ourselves with that work. Steve, I don’t think it’s as straightforward as being either optimistic or pessimistic about ‘the world’. I think both those stances are inadequate. One of the questions I’m interested in as a theologian is whether creation is a ‘cosmos’–in the original sense of being an integral whole, marked by order and even beauty (‘cosmos’ shares the same root as ‘cosmetic’). Those who use the problem of evil as an argument against theism clearly emphasise the world’s lack of order, goodness and beauty. They see more chaos than cosmos. Those who espouse Intelligent Design as an argument for some kind of theism point to the ‘design’ of the cosmos. I don’t think either argument holds because the world–in it’s present state–is only a partial cosmos. It is both beautiful and ugly. But that in-betweenness is what grounds our capacity to ‘discern spirits’ and so discover how God is at work in the world so that we might align ourselves with that work.

]]> By: Steve Bogner http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/comment-page-1/#comment-65 Steve Bogner Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:42:08 +0000 http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/#comment-65 A South African friend tried explaining cricket to me a while ago. After a while, all I could muster was a blank stare. It's kind of that way for me with theology too. I suppose I'd rather take an optimistic view of the world than a pessimistic one; I'd rather stand in the world than outside it. A South African friend tried explaining cricket to me a while ago. After a while, all I could muster was a blank stare. It’s kind of that way for me with theology too.

I suppose I’d rather take an optimistic view of the world than a pessimistic one; I’d rather stand in the world than outside it.

]]> By: Crystal http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/comment-page-1/#comment-64 Crystal Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:09:17 +0000 http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/#comment-64 Yes, that's question encompasses the main problem I have with Jesus/God ... when bad stuff happens, the facts seem to say that God must be responcible, if not for making the bad thing happen, at least for not fixing it. But my "feelings" say God is suffering along with me. I don't know theology but if that's true, it's both wonderful and weird ... I'm seriously not sure it's enough. Yes, that’s question encompasses the main problem I have with Jesus/God … when bad stuff happens, the facts seem to say that God must be responcible, if not for making the bad thing happen, at least for not fixing it. But my “feelings” say God is suffering along with me. I don’t know theology but if that’s true, it’s both wonderful and weird … I’m seriously not sure it’s enough.

]]> By: Rob http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/comment-page-1/#comment-63 Rob Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:57:33 +0000 http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/#comment-63 Crystal, Of course you are correct. A Christian understanding of God sees God as creator of everything. That's why the presence if bad stuff in the world poses such a problem to us. If we were theological dualists we could see the world as fundamentally split between good and bad 'gods' at war with each other. Instead we believe even the worst atrocity or disaster in some sense depends on God but we resist saying that God is their cause. How can a good God desire bad? One 'solution' is to suggest that if we could only see things with the eyes of God things would look rosier--that its only our faulty understanding that makes the Holocaust so awful. That's not a road I'd care to travel. I'm inclined to say instead that sometimes God doesn't get what God wants--though I realise that too has its issues. Crystal,

Of course you are correct. A Christian understanding of God sees God as creator of everything. That’s why the presence if bad stuff in the world poses such a problem to us. If we were theological dualists we could see the world as fundamentally split between good and bad ‘gods’ at war with each other. Instead we believe even the worst atrocity or disaster in some sense depends on God but we resist saying that God is their cause. How can a good God desire bad? One ’solution’ is to suggest that if we could only see things with the eyes of God things would look rosier–that its only our faulty understanding that makes the Holocaust so awful. That’s not a road I’d care to travel. I’m inclined to say instead that sometimes God doesn’t get what God wants–though I realise that too has its issues.

]]> By: Crystal http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/comment-page-1/#comment-62 Crystal Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:41:12 +0000 http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/#comment-62 A question, Fr. Marsh ... I don't know why, but it's hard to come to terms with the idea of evil, especially tangibly existing evil, rather than a metaphorical kind of evil. But if there is evil, isn't it still a creation of God's and is he not still in it, sort of? Is it a matter of degree ... discerning between what Gos is in the most and the least? Argh! See why I need SD :-) A question, Fr. Marsh …

I don’t know why, but it’s hard to come to terms with the idea of evil, especially tangibly existing evil, rather than a metaphorical kind of evil. But if there is evil, isn’t it still a creation of God’s and is he not still in it, sort of? Is it a matter of degree … discerning between what Gos is in the most and the least? Argh! See why I need SD :-)

]]> By: Rob http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/comment-page-1/#comment-61 Rob Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:09:28 +0000 http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/#comment-61 Crystal and Fran, Thanks for your comments. I agree and i disagree. There are at least two senses to that phrase 'find God in all things'. One which I would like to defend (with yourselves) is that God is not <i>a priori</i> excluded from any arena of experience or reality and, indeed, that when we engage with reality as we experience it God will always 'show up'. On the other hand (there are two 'other hands'!) the practice of discernment of spirits seems to show that any person's experience is made up of various 'movements' some of which it is best to foster and some which it is best to discourage. In that sense God is not in all things equally and drawing close to God (and finding a way in the world) is helped by discovering <i>where</i> God is and staying there. The other 'other hand' concerns cosmology and what I believe about place and spirit of place. God is everywhere--who'd want to limit that--but finding God is often about finding God <i>here</i> in the moments and locations where spirit is thick on the ground. Oh God there's another hand--I'm mutating! There's the knotty problem of evil in this world. Ignatian spirituality tends to be enormously optimistic about the human heart. We believe that to discover your own deepest desires is to discover God's desire for you. But Ignatius is also robustly realistic about God's desire for the world and how that desire is 'thwarted' by evil. The world isn't the way it is supposed to be. Finding God in all things is about discovering God's attitudes and desires for any (and all) situations so we can align ourselves with them. Crystal and Fran, Thanks for your comments. I agree and i disagree. There are at least two senses to that phrase ‘find God in all things’. One which I would like to defend (with yourselves) is that God is not a priori excluded from any arena of experience or reality and, indeed, that when we engage with reality as we experience it God will always ’show up’.
On the other hand (there are two ‘other hands’!) the practice of discernment of spirits seems to show that any person’s experience is made up of various ‘movements’ some of which it is best to foster and some which it is best to discourage. In that sense God is not in all things equally and drawing close to God (and finding a way in the world) is helped by discovering where God is and staying there.
The other ‘other hand’ concerns cosmology and what I believe about place and spirit of place. God is everywhere–who’d want to limit that–but finding God is often about finding God here in the moments and locations where spirit is thick on the ground.
Oh God there’s another hand–I’m mutating! There’s the knotty problem of evil in this world. Ignatian spirituality tends to be enormously optimistic about the human heart. We believe that to discover your own deepest desires is to discover God’s desire for you. But Ignatius is also robustly realistic about God’s desire for the world and how that desire is ‘thwarted’ by evil. The world isn’t the way it is supposed to be. Finding God in all things is about discovering God’s attitudes and desires for any (and all) situations so we can align ourselves with them.

]]> By: Fran http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/comment-page-1/#comment-60 Fran Sat, 27 Aug 2005 02:32:49 +0000 http://rmarsh.com/2005/08/26/cosmology-and-cricket-oh-and-evolution-too/#comment-60 I'm probably not theologically correct, but the questions you pose are those deep ones that we stayed up all night discussing in college. I agree with Crystal. I believe God (whoever that is) is in ALL things. That's why I'm considered a heretic. I’m probably not theologically correct, but the questions you pose are those deep ones that we stayed up all night discussing in college. I agree with Crystal. I believe God (whoever that is) is in ALL things. That’s why I’m considered a heretic.

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